The Creature List

2008-03-07 [Veltzeh]: "Along with the current WFR char Race list (which can be shifted over here on RPG-specific pages), the CL will be divided through external organization (in a MS Word 2007 document) between player and non-player races. The player-type races will go into a player's guidebook-style publication, while we will get ET permissions to work with the CL as a monster compendium."
It's very hard to figure out what exactly this means. This is how I decoded the text: If you declare some "race" playable, you'll just take its description/pictures without asking. And if you declare it as a "monster", you will ask for permission. (The player-type races will go into a player's guidebook-style publication, while we will get ET permissions to work with the CL as a monster compendium.) But what is an "ET permission"? Did you mean "permission from Elftown"? What/who would "Elftown" represent in that context? Also, the text implies that you will also make these changes to the actual list after having divided the races externally (Along with the current WFR char Race list (which can be shifted over here on RPG-specific pages), the CL will be divided through external organization (in a MS Word 2007 document) between player and non-player races.).
Now, I KNOW you apparently don't mean that by now, but your text just says something different! :/ How can I know what I should believe?

2008-03-07 [xido]: Veltzeh, I am glad that you are willing to rationalize this with me. Let me re-state my words in a way which is clear in English, the only language I speak.

You may "believe" whatever you wish at this point. I am not in the business of shifting people's beliefs. I am working on facts, the ones that we hold so dear on these informational pages.

The fact is that nothing is changing here. Let me re-state that: NOTHING is CHANGING HERE.

This "declaration" is happening on an external document, one which you nor the Council members do not need to view until it is finished and complete.

This document will divide the creatures listed here into two categories: Beasties and People-ish. Those aren't real words, so they might not translate well. I call them non-Player Races and Player Races. D&D has an excellent set of guidelines for defining what constitutes both, and I will be referencing this information on my own, without posting it to this page, on my own time, without yahoo-input from everyone, their brother, and their cat Felix.

Each creature's RPG-specific content will have its own page (as it does now) so that people like Silverfire and iippo don't have to think that I am tyrranically over-taking this page with my own best interests.

There is no information for this project which will in any way be taken without the creator's notification, and - if possible - full consent. Yep, big project. Better wish me luck. This book could be small if many people throw as big of a fit as y'all have about it.

You're a Council member, right? In fact, you all are, right? "ET permission" means the final product would pass its way in front of all of you, or whoever [Hedda] designates as the decision-makers before it went anywhere off this site.

The WFR has its own list of races that are sitting by un-changed because they are not on this one yet. If you tell me that this means that I am pushing my content onto you, then you are both correct and wrong. Do not think that there is any "implications" written in here. That would be an assumption - a not-very-informed and boisterous one - and as we all should know by now, to ASS-U-ME is quite a difficult endeavor to back up with rationality.

Let me state my goals here, so you can all stop assuming anything:
Three books (Players, Storytellers, Creatures) will be composed. They will feature information from this page, others, and many other sources - all legally endorsed and confirmed prior to publication. [Hedda] would see them first. Council would most likely review them second. We get permissions. We publish content. People are happy.
-will

2008-03-07 [windowframe]: If you'd bothered to try and listen to us at all, Xido, you'd have known we weren't accusing you of trying to take over the page. But I know you loev your paranoid fantasy about that, so I don't suppose there's much point in trying to tell you, yet again, that we weren't trying to make an ass out of you. iippo was actually asking the same question as Vel.

2008-03-08 [xido]: Still, more attitude, and an accusation against my actions and/or thoughts.

We're not getting real far here, are we?

2008-03-08 [windowframe]: Odd, I thought you were the one making the accusations about how *we* were thinking. But it's probably okay for you to do that. :) I would have asked the question, but I didn't see the point, because I honestly didn't think you'd respect me enough to answer me. Tell me otherwise, and I'll ask.

2008-03-08 [xido]: I guess you thought wrong. You might want to check the comment history before you say that one again.

Yes, it is completely okay for me to mirror the bad attitudes I see on this page. Call it stooping to a lower level, but sometimes that's the only thing that gets people like you to feel like they need the last word.

Believe what you must. I am not in the business of belief. I leave that for the churches. I am working on the facts. The fact is that you have time and again shown your true colors.

I can't wait until Angel and Hedda show up here. At least I can take a criticism from either of them, since it is of course only applicable that I get their opinions. I don't need yours, and not wanting them is a prerogitive; not a statement of paranoid delusion.

Earn my respect before you demand it. You certainly haven't made me feel like it is worth my time, but then you can't change my feelings, can you? I'm sure backing off wasn't mentioned in my first comments to you either... But I could be wrong.

2008-03-08 [windowframe]: Xido, you make no sense. Stop threatening people.

2008-03-08 [xido]: lol!

2008-03-08 [Veltzeh]: Okay, thanks. It does seem that stuff just comes to believing when we have to communicate abstract ideas through non-mathematical language because different people use words differently and in different context. It's fairly clear that all of us have misunderstood some things here because of that. It would be awesome if I said one thing and everyone would understand it just the way I did, but unfortunately language doesn't work that way. Word definitions are vague and stuff, and sentence structures make it even more complicated. I usually try my best to be clear but even the simplest language gets misunderstood sometimes!
Hmm, maybe that was enough language-nerding for this comment. Back to topic!

2008-03-08 [Linderel]: *pops in randomly* Semantics for the win! *pops back out*

2008-03-08 [Sunrose]: I agree with Vel on the misunderstanding-issue.
Maybe everyone should take 5 and a deep breath, before writing their replies. Try to have some understanding for each other, because in the heat of aggravation you might write things that were unnecessary and entirely not useful.
Of course everyone has the right to ask questions and a right to their opinion, especially if it also concerns their art.
And it's very possible that despite the amount of times things are explained, people still don't get the entire project.
This might require a lot of patience from both sides :)

2008-03-08 [xido]: Agreed on all points.

I will try to stay definitive, but when I tell someone to back off, I don't feel like repeating myself.

I still say the time we spent on this could have been more appropriately used in figuring out which creatures on this page are what, or - if we felt truly inspired - to post a little info or conjecture on their pages.

That is a much more productive activity than trying to understand a project that I did not yet open up to the public. I asked for Linn's help, and she is quite busy herself. It looks as though I may be doing it all by myself, which is fine as well. Thank the gods for motivation.

I understand the Council wanting to know what's going on here. I wish I could have a product in front of me to use as an example.... Very difficult to do when one spends more time "defending" himself from the statements of others than on working on this project.

Patience is a virtue not always understood in what I call "shallow internet facade" where people are allowed to read-in to your thoughts by the way of your words on a page. Hardly a good indicator of my judgement or thought processes.  :/
-will

2008-03-10 [Sunrose]: I understand, I think their issue is that they don't feel their questions have been answered and you feel that you have. That might cause huge aggravation for both.
Patience can also be exercised on the internet, if it is pointed out to everyone :)

It's important to note that [Hedda] has put a notice of your project before the Council, because the project concerns him, the Council and the artists involved.
It's a good thing to have several people look at your project from different angles.
All the questions you are getting now might be only 30% of the questions you will be asked later. If you are not able to answer them now in a satisfying manner, you will have bigger issues later on.

The only way the project can be evaluated, is by how you explain it. And since it concerns the art people have created, they will all be very alert and picky on your wording. Not because it is you, but because it is their art.
They don't want to agree to something to later find out they misunderstood and actually don't want it. This is very understandable from their point of view.

Your goal is not just practical, on how to create this book. Your goal should also be to create good will and convince people that this is something they want, so that it can actually happen.
It might not sound too appealing of a task, but this is also how it works in the real world: The artists you address are investors in your project. Investors don't throw around their money, just like artists don't do with their art.
So it's important to find out what they want, and what [Hedda] wants for Elftown. And see if and how you can comply to these wishes.
No matter how you look at it, you will in the end need permission from the artists. And the only way to get that is by making sure they want in on it..

My point is that all this trouble might actually be in your own benefit later down the line :)

2008-03-12 [Angel Dreamer]: Alright. I realize that I have been absent for quite some time, and I apologize to everyone for that. It's not exactly a joke that I've been eaten by school. Thank you to everyone who's been running this show while I've been away.

That said, barring [Hedda]'s overruling of this, there will be no publication of any part of the Creature List. Period. Individual artists are free to use their own artwork as they please, but this was intended as an open resource of mythological creatures and the variations on these creatures - free for anyone on Elftown (and now, apparently, the internet at large) to use. Not for publication. Nor was it ever intended for RPG; I'm glad role-players can make use of it, but it was never meant as anything more than an encyclopedia of sorts.

Also, I'm not sure if you were thinking of dividing this page itself into playable/non-playable characters as well. If you were, don't. Organization of the pages stands as-is.

2008-03-12 [xido]: Thank you for clarification, Angel. I believe that solves all problems presented here. I believe it will also give you an answer of my future plans, since the CL is no longer available to the publication in any form.

I will be approaching individual writers to help compose information on cultural monsters from around the world's mythologies, to be completed for publication uses, and the Guild will host contests for willing artists to be involved.

Since cultural creatures were the main pull for me to utilize this list to help our compilations, I see no reason why external pages could not be created and used in a Guild-specific manner.

I will not be needing any help in evaluating this list, and as I said before: it has never been my intention to modify this list beyond its intended uses as a resource (such as by adding content or a new creature). I will continue to help solely in comments and page content.

Best wishes,
-will

2008-03-13 [Hedda]: [iippo]: Why was mundagiller removed?

2008-03-13 [Hedda]: [Angel Dreamer]: Well, you can't stop writers who have submitted work here to submit it elsewhere too. But Elftown doesn't have copyright to their work, so I can neither stop nor force allowing texts to be used elsewhere. So my opinion on exactly that matter is that it's non of my business.

But if there are other ways we can help [xido] without too much effort and we get something in return, it's great. Anyone is welcome to use the stuff I currently have made and is on Elftown now, but I want free to copy digital copies then. (It's not a demand for my reference pictures, but a humble request there.).

2008-03-13 [Angel Dreamer]: I don't really have a problem with [xido] approaching people and getting them to write something up for him to use. I think my main objection is taking the information that was submitted here and making a profit from it. What I've heard of this project sounds liked a blatant disregard for everyone else who's contributed to the list.

...Why is mundagiller gone? I liked that thing, it's kinda cute...

2008-03-13 [windowframe]: [iippo] removed it because it was a creature created by her for an RP, and she was worried it would get used without her consent, I believe. Or possibly just because she got scared off this page in general, and wanted to take her content with her.

2008-04-06 [Linn Scarlett]: *drags herself back in, looking all messed up as if she's been wrestling a dragoncub* I am back again for the period coming. I am and have been very busy with work/study related projects, mostly out of the country on locations so desolate I required to be happy with a can of water, let alone internet >.>' But anyway, I am back for a bit.

On a side note, the list is turning out really good! Nice visual and ordening of the main page, especially ^_^

2008-04-06 [Linn Scarlett]: Did some woobling on various pages, amongst others the Bowtruckle/Dementor pages, 'cause ever since I've been writting my fanfic I've turned in a HP-lore geek. I blame the fact that the main character loves Magizoology for it :p